PayPal Pro not available in Australia

Hello s2member forums!

It seems like PayPal Australia does not offer PayPal Pro as a service – something about the strong anti money laundering laws here, or too difficult to enforce PCI DSS requirements on merchant websites. The sales people couldn’t really give me a straight answer apart from “We don’t offer that as a service”.

The closest thing they offer is “Website Payments Pro – Hosted Solution”. See PayPal Australia’s solutions below:
https://www.paypal-australia.com.au/business/accept-payments/accept-payments-on-your-website
Despite their claim: “Process credit and debit cards directly on your site with a merchant account and payment gateway all in one payment solution.”
The “How it works” section explains that it is not “directly on your site“, sigh…

The services offered by PayPal Australia:
Express Checkout:
An add-on to PayPal Standard & PayPal Pro. Credit Card without a PayPal account can be used for Buy Now transactions only – Not recurring subscriptions. Obviously I don’t want to restrict my market to PayPal users only.

Website Payments Pro – Hosted Solution:
I believe is the same as PayPal Pro, but without the “Process credit cards on your site” functionality. The customer is directed to a PayPal Hosted Checkout page which the merchant can “Customise” to look similar to their own website.

Website Payments Standard (PayPal Standard):
Checkout occurs at PayPal, customer can use a PayPal account, or select to pay by Credit Card (without a PayPal account – PayPal Guest). With ERP (Enhanced Recurring Payments) you can process recurring payments (i.e. subscriptions), you can even use Trial periods! However you can’t use Coupon Codes. I think this is a feature request for s2member in the future:
http://www.s2member.com/forums/topic/coupon-codes-without-pro-form/#post-6460

Payflow Gateway
Internet Merchant Account required – can pretty much do everything you want, just costs a few more $$$ to setup initially, and a bucket load more paperwork with one of Australia’s top 5 banks…

More info:
Apparently “Website Payments Pro – Hosted Solution” is an “Additional Feature” for PayPal Pro in the UK ():
https://cms.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/?cmd=_render-content&content_ID=developer/e_howto_api_WPWebsitePaymentsPro

The integration guide for “Website Payments Pro – Hosted Solution” can be found here:
https://cms.paypal.com/cms_content/GB/en_GB/files/developer/HostedSolution.pdf

Now you have the background info, here are my requirements:
Required:
Like most s2member users, I’d like to charge a recurring subscription and not limit myself to PayPal account holders – scratch “Express Checkout” off the list.

Available solutions: “Payflow Gateway” w/ IMA, “PayPal Standard w/ ERP”, “Website Payments Pro – Hosted Solution”

Strongly desired:
Like most people, I’d like to avoid a merchant account – scratch “Payflow Gateway” off the list.

Available solutions: “PayPal Standard w/ ERP”, “Website Payments Pro – Hosted Solution”

Nice to have, but can do business without:
Ideally I’d like the ability to use coupons – scratch “PayPal Standard w/ ERP” off the list.

Available solutions: “Website Payments Pro – Hosted Solution”

Finally:
Like most people, I’d prefer to keep the customer on my website – scratch “Website Payments Pro – Hosted Solution” off the list.

Available solutions: NONE!

So as you can see the closest I can get to my desired solution (without getting an IMA) is the “Website Payments Pro – Hosted Solution”.

My question (finally) is: Is there integration between s2member and “Website Payments Pro – Hosted Solution”?

Many thanks!

-Timbo

Hi Tim,

I’m going to consult with the lead developer on this and will get back to you.

Hi Raam,

Great thanks.

Also, in addition to my s2member/Hosted Solution question – If I decided to bite the bullet and setup an Internet Merchant Account (with a bricks and mortar bank) and use PayPal as the Payment Gateway (PayPal Payflow Pro), can I simply use the PayPal Pro Forms in s2member to accept payments? I presume the API and transactions are exactly the same with PayPal, but instead of the money going to my PayPal account, it’ll go to my Internet Merchant Account.

Also, would it be possible to add some Australian specific info here:
http://www.s2member.com/kb/paypal-services-a-quick-comparison/

Perhaps add some information about PayPal Payflow Pro as well if s2member supports it?

-Timbo

Hi Tim.

Perhaps add some information about PayPal Payflow Pro as well if s2member supports it?

You mentioned PayPal’s PayFlow Pro, so I wanted to clarify this: s2Member Pro doesn’t integrate with it yet.

s2Member Pro integrates with PayPal Pro. Now, depending on the PayPal Pro account you have, it may use the PayPal Pro API or the PayFlow API for the Recurring Billing service. The latter is called PayPal Pro (PayFlow Edition). It’s a naming mess that PayPal is doing with these products, confusing everybody.

So, depending on the API your PayPal Pro account uses, you’d need to configure the PayFlow settings or not in your s2Member PayPal Options page. [hilite path]Dashboard -› s2Member® -› PayPal® Options -› PayFlow[/hilite]

Hi Cristián,

Thanks for the info, but as mentioned in my previous post I cannot get a PayPal Pro account in Australia. My reference to “add some information about PayPal Payflow Pro” was if it were possible to add some info about it to the following page (as it relates – or doesn’t – to s2member):
http://www.s2member.com/kb/paypal-services-a-quick-comparison/

Anyway, is it possible that the PayFlow API that is being used for new PayPal Pro accounts is the same API that is used for PayFlow Pro accounts (as the name would suggest)? This would presumably mean that s2member is fully compatible with PayFlow Pro? Or is that just wishful thinking…

-Timbo

Thanks for the heads up on this thread.

PayPal’s product availability chart can be found here:
https://cms.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin?cmd=_render-content&content_ID=developer/howto_product_matrix

Website Payments Pro is available in the US (including Alaska/Hawaii), the UK, and Canada.
Payflow Pro is available in the US (including Alaska/Hawaii), and in Australia.

However, s2Member Pro Forms are NOT currently compatible with Payflow Pro as a stand-alone product. s2Member Pro Forms are compatible with PayPal Pro accounts, and with PayPal Pro accounts operating under the Payflow edition, but in Australia that is currently NOT possible unfortunately (e.g. s2Member Pro Forms work best when integrated with PayPal Pro, or PayPal Pro Payflow Edition).

That being said, s2Member Pro Forms are compatible with Express Checkout (available in all countries, including Australia), and if implemented properly, Express Checkout can be integrated with s2Member Pro Forms exclusively. Making it possible to accept coupon codes, collect custom fields, etc, etc… via Pro Forms, and then the actual checkout process is handled by PayPal Express Checkout (either with a PayPal account, or with a credit card, if the customer does not have a PayPal account).

Please see this article for further details regarding Express Checkout:
Pre Sale FAQs » To use s2Member® Pro Forms, will I have to use PayPal® Pro?

The only limitation that bothers some site owners using Express Checkout exclusively, is that PayPal requires the customer to have a PayPal account (if, and only if), you are collecting recurring charges. If you’re not collecting recurring fees, there should be little standing in your way with Express Checkout.

Hi Jason,

Thanks for the detailed response.

Could you just confirm the following for me:
1) There is no way for an Australian merchant to process s2member payments on their site, it has to be passed to PayPal, Google, etc. Meaning there is no paid PayPal version for Australian merchants that are compatible with s2member.

Of the free versions of PayPal:
2) PayPal Checkout Express requires the customer to have a PayPal account to process recurring payments.
3) PayPal standard w/ ERP does not require the customer to have a PayPal account to process recurring payments, but s2member Pro Forms are not compatible with PayPal standard.

Pro Forms integrates with Authorize.net:
4) Authorize.net does not offer service to Australian merchants.

Have you ever considered integrating a service such as Spreedly:
http://spreedly.com/

Though I have not used them, from what I have seen it should provide s2member with the appropriate API hooks and billing capabilities required to get the job done. This would open s2member up to a plethora of alternative payment gateways (and potentially allow us Aussies to process cards on our site).

-Timbo

Hi Timbo.

1) There is no way for an Australian merchant to process s2member payments on their site, it has to be passed to PayPal, Google, etc. Meaning there is no paid PayPal version for Australian merchants that are compatible with s2member.

Right.

2) PayPal Checkout Express requires the customer to have a PayPal account to process recurring payments.

Right.

3) PayPal standard w/ ERP does not require the customer to have a PayPal account to process recurring payments, but s2member Pro Forms are not compatible with PayPal standard.

Right. I don’t know if there’s something like ERP for Express Checkout.

4) Authorize.net does not offer service to Australian merchants.

I don’t know.

Have you ever considered integrating a service such as Spreedly:

Thanks for the tip! Yeah, it looks like a nice service. I just found out about it and emailed Jason a couple weeks ago. :)

Hi Cristián,

Thanks for the clarification.

What can I say – I’m bitterly disappointed that PayPal Australia doesn’t provide PayPal Pro as a service, though I’m glad to hear that Spreedly may be considered in the future.

Thanks for your help.

-Timbo

Yeah, PayPal should make it very clear so users there don’t get the wrong idea from all the promotion made to PayPal Pro online. :/

Does it have to be PayPal Pro for your site, though?

Hi Cristián,

Does it have to be PayPal Pro for your site, though?

That’s a rather vague question/statement? To accept a payment from a customer? No it doesn’t have to be PayPal Pro, I could use PayPal Standard or Express Checkout. There are two problems with that though:
1. The inability to accept payments on our site directly (only being able to pass the customers through to PayPal), will eventually appear unprofessional if we were to grow into a larger organisation (which every business would hope/expect). To quote the s2member site:

With regard to PayPal Pro:

Increased conversion rates make a HUGE difference

On most sites, conversion rates increase by over 20% – because you’re accepting Visa, MasterCard, Amex, Discover, Maestro, and Solo (directly on your site)

Reference: http://www.s2member.com/kb/paypal-services-a-quick-comparison/

2. We intend for our site to require recurring subscriptions and Express Checkout is not really a viable option as it requires customers have a PayPal account. Our demographic is an older audience which I imagine will mean they are less likely to have a PayPal account, let alone to set one up specifically to use our service. PayPal standard is also not a viable option (see point 1 above).

The other payment options s2member offers are not suitable either:
Authorize.net is not available in Australia
Google Checkout passes the client to Google for processing payments (see point 1 above – potentially hindering our growth possibilities)
ClickBank passes the client to ClickBank for processing payments (see point 1 above – potentially hindering our growth possibilities)

Basically, I’d be more than happy to start with PayPal Standard, but as you can see that would be very short sighted of me. Not to mention a very poor business decision to limit my business before I’ve even started it – the sky’s the limit you know!

As unfortunate as it is that PayPal Australia does not support the PayPal Pro service, it is also s2member that does not support PayPal’s Australian services – PayFlow Pro or Website Payments Pro – Hosted Solution. But I understand that – as a business you only have so many resources and you need to cater to the largest market. I’m in the same situation…

So Cristián, can you see a possible solution that I have missed?

-Timbo

Well, I was trying to find a way for you to make it work with the gateways supported by s2Member, even when PayPal Australia doesn’t have the Pro service.

There are two problems with that though

Yes, I can perfectly understand that. It’s just that they do work fine for some websites and I wanted to double check if yours would be one of those. Some site owners want the best off the bat, although it’s not required right away.

Basically, I’d be more than happy to start with PayPal Standard, but as you can see that would be very short sighted of me.

So Cristián, can you see a possible solution that I have missed?

Well, what PayPal services are available in Australia that would work for you? We are working on the new s2Member, which will be integrated with more PP services, one of which may work for you, so starting with PP Standard for now and wait for that release in a few months may be a possibility.

Hi Cristián,

Yes, I can perfectly understand that. It’s just that they do work fine for some websites and I wanted to double check if yours would be one of those. Some site owners want the best off the bat, although it’s not required right away.

I agree, on site payment processing may not be required for a lot of sites initially, but my primary concern is that it’s not available at all.

We are working on the new s2Member, which will be integrated with more PP services, one of which may work for you, so starting with PP Standard for now and wait for that release in a few months may be a possibility.

I love the fact that the s2member developers are constantly tweaking and updating their product, but from a business point of view I’d need something a little more concrete than “wait for that release in a few months may be a possibility“. A possibility? Again, that’s a very vague statement.

Besides, would I not be better off with s2member free (instead of Pro) if I were to choose to wait for a new version with more payment options.

Well, what PayPal services are available in Australia that would work for you?

I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt that you deal with a lot of other posts, and may have forgotten that I’ve already listed them for your consideration in my opening post:
http://www.s2member.com/forums/topic/paypal-pro-not-available-in-australia/?qcAC=1#lead-topic-22686

But that does remind me of the first time you commented on this thread seemingly without reading the heading or my initial post (you assumed I had a PayPal Pro account when it’s blatantly obvious that I cannot get one):

So, depending on the API your PayPal Pro account uses

Ref: http://www.s2member.com/forums/topic/paypal-pro-not-available-in-australia/#post-22942

But I digress.

I love what s2member has to offer, it looks like it would be a great platform to build a membership site upon. But as you can see from my previous posts, I have put an enormous amount of time and effort into trying to make this work, but it just won’t at this point in time.

Please don’t get the tone of my post wrong, I have enormous respect and admiration for the product you’ve developed (as I am a novice PHP programmer). I think it’s fantastic that you offer a support forum for me to search through, and that your support staff respond within a reasonable timeframe even though I can see there are 50+ posts a day.

Also, could someone please reply to my Private Contact request? I would have much rather debated the functionality and shortcomings of your product in private (as I would have assumed you would have too?). Instead I have had to continue this conversation in the public forum turning this thread from an informational one into a justification as to why not to use s2member.

-Timbo

A possibility? Again, that’s a very vague statement.

Because I needed to know what PP services you had available there before I could say if the new s2Member being developed will support it.

I’ve already listed them for your consideration in my opening post

You mention PayFlow Gateway, is that the PayFlow Pro service? I’ll ask Jason to confirm it, but I believe the new s2Member will support the standalone PayFlow service in Australia.

could someone please reply to my Private Contact request?

That one needs to be replied by Jason, and he’s only checking his email about once a week.

I don’t know exactly what he’ll reply, but it’s very possible that he will point you to the Refund policy, since it’s not really a fault with s2Member that you don’t have PayPal Pro or Authorize.Net available in your country to receive payments on your site.

I’ll send him a reminder of your email.

Please don’t get the tone of my post wrong, I have enormous respect and admiration for the product you’ve developed (as I am a novice PHP programmer). I think it’s fantastic that you offer a support forum for me to search through, and that your support staff respond within a reasonable timeframe even though I can see there are 50+ posts a day.

Thanks! :)

Hi Cristián,

I’m very familiar with s2member’s refund policy, I read it before I purchased s2member. I am also aware that a refund is completely discretionary, so I am not demanding a refund, merely humbly requesting one. (Again I would have preferred to discuss this via the Private Contact request)

While I don’t think anyone specifically is to blame for the fact s2member is not working for me as expected, but as you can see below, there were a number of factors that worked against me.
1) PayPal website and documentation is appalling and the Australian website even states they offer a PayPal Pro (like) service called PayFlow Pro:
https://www.paypal.com/au/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_profile-comparison
(See: PayFlow Pro – Internet Merchant Account: Included)
But upon speaking with a PayPal sales rep, it turns out that page is completely incorrect, sigh…

2) s2member’s “PayPal® Services / A Quick Comparison” makes no mention of PalPal pro only being available in the US (including Alaska/Hawaii), the UK, and Canada. I’m not going to be unreasonable and say that it should have been there, but it certainly would have saved me a lot of time, effort and frustration if I knew this right from the start.

While I’m certainly not saying that I’m a complete victim in this, I am saying that I performed a fairly through due-diligence before I purchased s2member and some exceptional circumstances have arisen which I think may warrant a refund.

Needless to say that purely from an ethical business point of view – If a customer buys a product and they cannot get 90% of the deemed value out of it because of exceptional circumstances out of their control, it seems a bit cold hearted to turn your back on them. This isn’t a physical product that loses substantial value as soon as it is opened or leaves the store. Further to that, this isn’t buyer’s remorse, I so desperately want to use s2member (I love the open source goodness of it and the support forums), but it cannot perform 90% of its stated functions for an Australian merchant.

-Timbo

2) s2member’s “PayPal® Services / A Quick Comparison” makes no mention of PalPal pro only being available in the US (including Alaska/Hawaii), the UK, and Canada. I’m not going to be unreasonable and say that it should have been there, but it certainly would have saved me a lot of time, effort and frustration if I knew this right from the start.

Sorry about that, I added this in.

– Eduan

Sorry about that, I added this in.

Awesome, thanks Eduan.

-Timbo

I’m so sorry that PayPal had bad documentation on their site, that misled you to think you could use them in Australia. It’s amazing the amount of trouble I’ve seen PayPal give site owners and users in the past months… :(

I can understand your situation and I appreciate what you’re saying. Like I said, I emailed Jason about this, I don’t have more say over this, I can only try to find a way to make it work for you.

So far the only thing I think could work, is to start with PayPal Standard and later, when the PayFlow Pro support is released, upgrade to that. I’ll let you know when I hear back from Jason regarding this feature.

Awesome, thanks Eduan.

No problem. :)

The more problems we solve, the better. ;)

I was wondering if or even when you are looking at implementing paypal Australia services any time soon.
At this point the two real options for Australians are:

PayPal Website Payment Pro: for self hosted Pro Forms (Hopefully as this service is $30 a month with no set up fees)

or

Paypal Payflow Gateway: for self hosting Pro Forms (This has a $500 set up and $139 monthly recurring fee.)

Either or either of these would be awesome.

I just bought s2members today and I’m devastated that I can’t use the self hosted service. I only this post after :)
Anyway I thought I’d throw in my 2 bob’s worth and see if this will help with development

Hi Kali.

PayPal Website Payment Pro: for self hosted Pro Forms (Hopefully as this service is $30 a month with no set up fees)

PayPal Pro is supported by s2Member, the problem is that it seems to not be available in Australia. It’s PayFlow Pro what is not supported by s2Member yet, but we’re working on it.

That’s awesome What’s your guestimate with a release for that?

Sorry, I hope it’ll be soon, but won’t guesstimate because I could be off by a lot. :P